NASTAR At Whiteface

[Xtremeskiier]

I can't believe they would choose Broadway since its a great intermediate run at the end of the day when upper valley goes to crap. I think that if they were going to have to pay this extra money for liability, they should spendit on a larger skiier cross and leave it up on lower valley. People would definately pay to do that and Whiteface is a racers mountain. The weather conditions make it unusually icy and is known as a steep and fast mountain. Ski areas usually add parks as a way to get younger kids to come and inturn bring out more families. In whiteface's case, there are so few people in the parks that I don't see it bringing in much added value to the mountain... just my thoughts though

 

[CS_Films]

Freestyle skiing and Snowboarding are becoming a large part of the ski industry. Allot of the most successful mountains in the country have great parks and defiantly draw people and families. This park expansion is a great thing they are doing. I know they had planed on doing some trail work to relieve pressure on tower 10 hill and that was never able to happen this may be a major reason for this. Whiteface is working hard along with every New York State entity in making every dollar they spend count. I am sure alot of things were taken into consideration when they made this move.

 

[Snowballs]

Freestyle skiing and Snowboarding are becoming a large part of the ski industry. Allot of the most successful mountains in the country have great parks and defiantly draw people and families. This park expansion is a great thing they are doing. I know they had planed on doing some trail work to relieve pressure on tower 10 hill and that was never able to happen this may be a major reason for this. Whiteface is working hard along with every New York State entity in making every dollar they spend count. I am sure alot of things were taken into consideration when they made this move.

Dude...i was just writing about you on the Misc. page here under the Wild Stallions thread. Welcome to the board!!! You and you friends have some great talent in front of and behind the camera. not kidding.

how about that for a coincedence! these young guys are turning out some great film work that not only displays their awesome skiing skills...their cinematography, presentation etc blah blah far surpasses their limited film making career and puts them ahead of others who are on this path who have more money and experience. that rocks! good job!!!

 

[fujative.]

Re: financial analysis

Here is an idea if they need more space on tower 10 hill lets put Nastar on Broadway instead of a terrian park - it will be less expensive than having to blow extra snow for the features in the park.

Here is a little simple financial anaysis of the terrian park. I've heard that the park budget was north of $500,000 - to cover the extra snow, extra grooming time building the features, staff, liability for injuries, higher insurance etc. Let's say that will the large addition of broadway the park budget is $600k. At $74 a day for lift tickets that means you have to sell over 8100 more lift tickets just to break even on cash flow.

the proper way to do this would be to really look at the extra profit that the park brings in. Since we don't know WF's margin lets just say its 25%. In that case WF would have to sell over 24,000 more lift tickets to justify the terriain park. I don't the park supports any where near that. On a weekend its the same 25-50 kids that use the thing all day long and most of them have a season's pass.

If WF got rid of the park it would not hurt the tourist business in Placid one bit. Park rats are not really the demographic that LP is looking for

Conversely - nastar is cheap to operate - just a few staff on snow that is already blown. Since their is less traffic on Nastar is does not need as much snow as a regular trail. It brings in extra money on top of a lift ticket. Both locals and tourists use and love it. This is a no brainer financial decision - keep Nastar and dump the parks.

HI, I'm a "park rat" here to rain on your parade. You'd be amazed how much money a good park will bring a mountain. And being a freestyle skier, I can tell you Whiteface has the best park in NY. On another Freestyle skiing forum, kids from all over the northeast make threads about where to go in NY for a good park. Kids drag their families from Canada, Downstate, Western NY, and even Pennsylvania for the park.

I think that you're missing that most of these "park rats" are under the age of 18, coming from where ever with their families. Just because the entire family doesn't go through the park, doesn't mean the park isn't part of the reason why they're there. And you say maybe 25 kids hit the park a day, most of them with passes? WRONG. Try waiting to hit that first jump. Each feature will have a line of about 30 people.

 

[SKIdds]

I am not a park rat, so I'm not in there all the time. But I do pass through that way a couple of times a day when I'm on the hill. Did I mention I ski WF mostly on holiday weekends? I've never seen a line of 30 people waiting for a feature in the park. Not that I'm completely disagreeing with your points about who the park brings in (I really can't say), but me thinks you exaggerate a wee bit to make your point . Or maybe I just go through at the right times to avoid those crowds. Lucky me.

 

[zski]

charge for the park

Ok let's explore this idea that park actually makes money (though i personally very much doubt this is the case)

since there is (was) a charge to use Nastar it would only seem to make sense to me than to charge for use of the park

Given that only a small percentage of skiers / riders really use it the cost of building the features. It would actually be very helpful in defense of law suits regarding injuries that occur in the park if they would charge a fee to use it and require a waiver signature when you pay for it. Since you would be taking the use of the park away from others that wouldn't pay and it used to be free lets say you give everyone that opts out a $5 discount off current rates. This could help spur lift ticket sales as well for non - park types. Of course since only at best 20% (i'd put it at close to 10%) of people would pay to use the park you would need to charge them at least $20 plus some profit to lets say $25.

OK park rats - would you pay $25 to use the park?

Just like Nastar they would sell a season pass to the park say for $100-150

In business school they teach you that if that is someone is not willing to pay for something its not worth doing. I suspect the park would not make the cut as a stand alone business model as i laid out. In an earlier post I've made my case how the park is not financially sound either so why the heck is WF spending more on parks - THEY LOSE MONEY NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK AT IT!

 

[SKIdds]

From a business standpoint you can't always use the 'if it can't float as a standalone you shouldn't do it' argument, as fujative makes a viable point. If there are a dozen people in the park on a given day whose family chose WF as a destination because it had a decent park for their junior shredder, you'd have to assign at least a portion (if not all) of the revenue generated by ticket sales to Jhonny's mom, dad sis and bro, along with the Kid's Kampus lessons sis and bro took, and adult lessons mom took, and the grub they purchasd at lunch, and, and......to the park operations. HOw can you really figure how it does as a standalone? That non-park-user revenue would not have existed but for the park, so how do you count it?

Problem is, we have no idea how much that is really happening. However, I bet more people choose a destination because it has a great park as opposed to a NASTAR course, and NASTAR revenue had to to be negligible.

All in all, I'm ok with the park development. Honestly, even though I'm old and I suck at them, I use the pipe and the park more than the nastar course.

It would be interesting to know more about the true cost of NASTAR. What kind of fees, if any, did the mountain have to pay to support the program and other stuff like that. NASTAR might not have been as profitable as a standalone as everyone seems to be assuming.

 

[zski]

i hear the the park brings the mom dad and gramps to the mountain agruement but if you read my earlier post on financial analysis of the park does it bring at least 24000 more lift tickets a year to cover its costs - doubt it

to me losing Broadway is as big if not a bigger issue than losing Nastar. That is going to put that much more traffic on upper valley and easy street. Easy street is where the lower level skier are so that is not good and upper valley already gets really icy or sloppy at the end of the day now. How bad is that going to be with 50% more traffic on it all day long

 

[PeteG]

i hear the the park brings the mom dad and gramps to the mountain agruement but if you read my earlier post on financial analysis of the park does it bring at least 24000 more lift tickets a year to cover its costs - doubt it

to me losing Broadway is as big if not a bigger issue than losing Nastar. That is going to put that much more traffic on upper valley and easy street. Easy street is where the lower level skier are so that is not good and upper valley already gets really icy or sloppy at the end of the day now. How bad is that going to be with 50% more traffic on it all day long

I'm also not happy with losing Nastar, but I agree with zski's last comment about traffic flow. I think this will become the biggest problem this year. Losing both Broadway and Off Broadway greatly reduces the options for the skiers/boarders coming off the Summit and Excelsior/Lower Northway. Concentrating all of that traffic onto 2 trails instead of 3 will(imho) cause a) Upper Valley to get skied off earlier in the day, and b) push more intermediate/advanced skiers onto Easy Street.

The flow also could become a problem at the bottom, below midstation, as there are 4 terrain park sections(not inclding kids campus) below midstation;
1) Half pipe - entrance off of Boreen
2) Danny's Bridge/Brookside
3) Fox(was Lower Valley last year) - below race finish
4) Wolf and Wolf Run - depending on how often this open to the public - I heard it may be used for trainning the NYSEF kids.

Only time will tell, but having all of theses trails dedicated to terrain parks is one thing, but having them spead all over the mountain could be a problem as it will cause to much mixing of skiers/boarders with significantly different abilities on to many trails.

 

[Snowballs]

maybe it's time to become a Park Rat. The lil whipper snappers better not laugh at us old farts. :wink:

 

[Face4Me]

i hear the the park brings the mom dad and gramps to the mountain agruement but if you read my earlier post on financial analysis of the park does it bring at least 24000 more lift tickets a year to cover its costs - doubt it

to me losing Broadway is as big if not a bigger issue than losing Nastar. That is going to put that much more traffic on upper valley and easy street. Easy street is where the lower level skier are so that is not good and upper valley already gets really icy or sloppy at the end of the day now. How bad is that going to be with 50% more traffic on it all day long

This thread has gone in two directions, both of which I'll throw my two cents at.

The first is the issue of NASTAR. Where I work, we have a policy against using the words "all" and "every". It's kind of like never saying "never". To completely do away with NASTAR seems foolish to me. If cost is the issue, why not run it only on weekends? Why not come up with some ideas on how to increase use of the NASTAR course? For example, at the end of the season, Whiteface hosts the annual Apple Butter Moguls event. Why not hold some amateur race events on the NASTAR course at several times during the season. See if a sponsor could be found who would offer some kind of a prize, and charge each entrant the standard NASTAR fee to enter. I suspect a lot of people would probably like to try the course if they had a chance at some kind of a prize. The point is, try to come up with some creative solutions to the problem rather than just giving up. If cost is not the issue, then what is?

As for the creation of a park on Broadway, I have to agree with some of the others on this board. It seems like a bad idea to me, and one that is going to create some pretty nasty "traffic" problems on Upper Valley in particular, and make things uncomfortable for novice skiers on Easy Street and Boreen. In addition, I think you have to wonder about the affect of this park traffic coming off of Broadway and then flying down on the Boreen Headwall which is already a pretty nasty spot. I hope they plan to have a full time Safety Patrol staff at the end of Broadway keeping things in order!

Here's another crazy idea ... How about converting all of Kid's Kampus into a park? Sounds crazy, but if you think it through, it's not such a bad idea. You'd have a dedicated lift for the "park rats". You could sell three types of tickets: Park Only, Mountain Only, and Combination. It would keep the "park rats" away from the rest of the mountain, which could have an overall positive affect on traffic and accidents. They could use Mixing Bowl, Wolf Run, Wolf, Bear and Deer as the learning area. These trail are all pretty well isolated from the rest of the mountain the way the Kids Kampus trails are. The only problem would be that you'd probably need to convert the Bear lift to a triple chair to accomodate the Play N Ski program, or you'd just need to use more ski school apprentices to escort the young kids on the chair. Just a thought anyway!

 

[Snowballs]

good points. traffic problems may cause accidents and the whole area gets posted as a slow zone.

a lift for a park would be awesome in that people wouldn't have to keep going much higher up just to get down to the park. Park-ers could steadily rip just the park over and over again. they'ld like that.

Kid's Kampus is popular and very useful. it would be hard to get support for changing it.

How to accommadate all these ideas and desires is complicated.

 

[-=koLLac=-]

Here's another crazy idea ... How about converting all of Kid's Kampus into a park? Sounds crazy, but if you think it through, it's not such a bad idea. You'd have a dedicated lift for the "park rats". You could sell three types of tickets: Park Only, Mountain Only, and Combination. It would keep the "park rats" away from the rest of the mountain, which could have an overall positive affect on traffic and accidents. They could use Mixing Bowl, Wolf Run, Wolf, Bear and Deer as the learning area. These trail are all pretty well isolated from the rest of the mountain the way the Kids Kampus trails are. The only problem would be that you'd probably need to convert the Bear lift to a triple chair to accomodate the Play N Ski program, or you'd just need to use more ski school apprentices to escort the young kids on the chair. Just a thought anyway!

Hello, I agree with your questions and points about NASTAR. I've never tried it but I know I definitely would have if a prize was involved!

I think another issue with the move to Broadway will be people who do NOT belong to the park skiing/riding through it because they are used to taking that trail. Not only will those people damage the take-offs and landings by not using them properly, they'll also put themselves and "park rats" at risk for serious injury due to potential collisions.

Kid's Campus wouldn't work because it's flat. That's already been an issue with Brookside...unfortunately there isn't really a good "park" trail at Whiteface. If you ever go out West and look at the parks at like Breckenridge, Keystone, Park City, etc. they are on wide and actually moderately steep trails. Broadway starts out OK but flattens out much like Brookside so I'm not sure how they'll pull it off. I'm excited to see it, though.

 

[Face4Me]

Kid's Campus wouldn't work because it's flat. That's already been an issue with Brookside...unfortunately there isn't really a good "park" trail at Whiteface. If you ever go out West and look at the parks at like Breckenridge, Keystone, Park City, etc. they are on wide and actually moderately steep trails. Broadway starts out OK but flattens out much like Brookside so I'm not sure how they'll pull it off. I'm excited to see it, though.

Yeah ... I figured that might be a problem, but not really being too familiar with the needs of park, I thought it might be possible to pile the snow to deal with the grade issues.

Like I said ... it was just a thought!

 

[Hoser]

Agree on the comments that forcing the general public away from Broadway will turn Upper Valley into a killing field even sooner in the day. :evil: He who tunes wins!

Regarding choosing a destinitation based on NASTAR - we have chosen to go to mountains because of NASTAR (both in the East and in the West) over the last few years; it has become one of the heavier weighted variables. Similar to kids pushing for a mountain with a park, other kids push for a mountain w/ NASTAR, both racers and non-racers who want to "play" in the gates and earn some recognition (medal).
:roll:

 

[CS_Films]

Thanks for the props earlier on in the thread. I will see if i can shed some more light on this issue.

Nastar does not turn a profit for the mountain it was a service that they provided just like the park to help people enjoy the mountain.

The idea of turning kids campus into a entire park is a great idea but its not possible. Its to flat and kids campus is one of the best things about Whiteface. Im sure that is a huge draw for families which would be there biggest profit maker.

There are a few mountains who have a dedicated lift and area for park and it does work out great.
Whiteface being so tall and thin its hard for them to do that.

Also they are putting up a Timed course somewhere im not sure the details but its a different system i think much simpler and easer for them to operate.

Nastar is not gone forever they plan to bring it back.

 

[Alkyy]

I think that the extra traffic that upper valley will get will not be as bad as when the park kids straightline in and out of people just to get to the park, ive never hit someone myself but i have heard of fellow park skiiers who have hurt people because they were trying to get to the park ASAP!. Kids campus is far to flat for anything, the best trail whiteface has for a park for gradent would be upper thruway/drapers drop up untill the steep headwall. Thats how steep parks should be.

Nastar has lost the mtn money, no disputing it. It does draw a few people like an earlier post said, probably just enough to break even on it, not quite as much as the parks.

And im the assistand director for CS films so thanks for the complement!!

 

[Snowballs]

Oh you guys are more than welcome!

 

[weezy]

Don't mean to beat a dead horse with this late post, but here I am anyway. It seems to me that Alkyy and friends see the straightlining (and the potential for hitting others) as an acceptable or unavoidable risk. I see the fact that Whiteface chooses to give the straightliners more of their own space to avoid this as "rewarding bad behavior". It really disturbs me. I have nothing against snowboarders or their enjoyment of the mountain. I do have something against their sometimes lack of respect for others- probably not a "boarding" thing, but more of an "age" or attitude thing....behavior that should be punished- not rewarded at the expense of more respectful boarders and skiers by giving them more space on the mountain.
As for the demise of NASTAR, I question Alkyy's certainty that it has lost Whiteface money- not sure how he knows that. It seems he's just happy it will be out of the way. It's always difficult to put a dollar amount on how many tickets were sold because of any one feature on the mountain, but, as someone who has spent a lot of time at the NASTAR course, I know that it has attracted many repeaters and thrilled many first timers. It has been a draw to great racers, as well as beginner kids and adults. Folks complain when its closed and WILL miss it when its gone. I question whether giving more space to the parks will make up for the loss of NASTAR. Will Whiteface gain more new snowboarders than they will lose NASTAR racers? I doubt it. It looks like they're taking away some of the variety to please just a few. Hope you "straigtliners" buy lots and lots of full price day passes and bring all your paying friends, because I think Whiteface is driving many of the NASTAR regulars right to other mountains.

 

[CS_Films]

I can assure NASTAR lost the mountain money. They kept it open as a service, not to make money. The reasoning to build the park bigger was not to reward bad behavior it had nothing to do with the kids straight lignin. Its the fact they they are now putting everything in one spot so they can hit everything in one spot.