New York money for infrastructure

[I:)skiing]

http://www.thehighline.org/

So this thread can go two ways....

1) rails to trails....mentioned in the snow train thread. Rather than spend 2M fixing the rails and stations, what would have occured if that money was spent transfoming the rail to a trail. We have several in Maryland and we love them.

2) In all the planning and many threads the planners talk about how infrastructure money is repaid by new businesses and taxes that come. I believe in the intraconnect plan, they propose a 6:1 return on investment. This trail has yet to open and the PR campaign advises that "30 new businesses have opened in the neighborhoods" Would they have opened anyway? How big are they, are they icecream stands? Will/when will they pay taxes? Its along 1.75 miles of NYC....I hope 30 new businesses have opened within the past year in this distance.....


This walkway (which was slated to be torn down) cost NY 150 Million dollars (that they are reporting) and will likely cost millions more in upkeep, increased security, vandalism etc. They had to sandblast 100% of it to get the lead off the metal. That contractor is likey is buying a new million dollar home at Gore. I particularly enjoyed reading the "this is prohibited" sign. I think the developers were very smart to take photos of the benches and areas before it opened to the public. Those benches look like skateboarder's dreams, note how they the ramp up/down.

Gore---keep tossing the ideas to NY State. There is money, get your hand out. Hire professionals to write the grants/proposals. The gondi loading at the train station may only be a few yrs away.


I would enjoy walking this trail. That said, I would not have agreed to pay for it......but then, unless Fed money was used as matching, I guess I didn't.

 

[Snowballs]

all that's nice and all.....but how about this...... i sent ALL the decision makers at Gore, Face and Orda an email 3 months ago (ya it was me!) tellin them basically the following ideas:

...... Get windmills. not all windmills are goliaths these days. instead of one windmill.....many windmills ! smaller ones are easier to get permits approved and install anywhere, even on lift towers! they can be installed in stages as money permits. Swift Wind Turbine makes one($11,000) that's whisper quiet, has a ring around the blade tips that could be painted the Olympic colors and placed in groups of five. that would look cool atop the hockey ice rink, the outside ice rink, the Bistro...anywhere. also lift towers are a natural mounting place. ski resorts are windy places. having power lines strung about the mtn for windmills would permit the use of snow cannons.....Hoyt's High snowmaking aided by Fed Stimulus money. just add water. said power lines would be connected to the grid and supply power "backwards" on calm days.

Corning Tower in Albany has one installed as a test in urban settings that was paid for by the state. here's the kicker....the Fed Stimulus Plan will pay for such projects......so let's carpe diem. Jiminy Peak gets big love for theirs. let's see if the powers that be are progressive thinkers and seize the day.

Windmills make WAAAAAAAAAAY more sense than ski trains, downtown NC gondi, etc. AND they save/make you money!!! what's not to love ?

http://www.swiftwindturbine.com/?r=1

plus videos...... http://www.swiftwindturbine.com/videos.php

there's many other manufactures of all sizes of windmills. JUST DO IT !

 

[I:)skiing]

Bend Or is getting millions for a geothermal plant used to generate ele. I agree, if there is stim money, get it.

NOTE: I hate the big windmills where people can see them. I would like to see the smaller ones as Snowballs found and recommneded.


Pa mountain ranges are being ruined in my view by these corporations planting these huge windmills.

 

[Adk Keith]

Well I'm not sure where to start. To start with, I am all for wind energy production. I worked in wind energy for 7 years and worked on all sorts of windimills from small 12 volt dc mills to 44 ft diameter, 60 kw commercial units.

First of all You need wind. 11-12 mph average just to break even. That doesn't sound like much but it is. Yes there is that kind of wind on mountain and ridge tops but once you drop off the ridge or mountain top you don't have enough. Ice skating rink in LP doesn't have enough, the ski jumps don't have enough.

Next you need good wind. This is wind that flows smoothly without turbulence caused by the ground or surounding features such as other ridges, trees. or even other windmills. That's why the windmills are on towers even though they are on high ground. If the wind is turbulant the mill spends it's time yawing back and forth in the wind.

Next you can't stick them on any old tower or building. For one thing they sometimes fail; Sometimes they fail catastrophically. I was once sent to Palm Springs a week after we had two windmills come down due to mounting bolt failures. You see these windmills in the beginning of the movie Rain Man when Tom Cruise get's the call his father has died. In that scene you can see how far from the highway those mills are. At least 100 yards. The blades from one of the failed mills landed in the road. A failure of even a small windmill on a lift tower? Forgetaboutit.

One of the design problems windmill manufacturers have to over come are tower dynamics, that is the relationship between the vibration that the windmill produces while operating and how the harmonics in the tower react to the to those vibrations. We've all probably seen the bridge in Tacoma, WA that went down because of the harmonic vibrations setup by the wind. That happens when windmills are put on things that aren't designed to hold them.

So While I would also like to see the developement of wind energy, it just ain't that easy.

 

[Spongeworthy]

We've all probably seen the in Tacoma, WA that went down because of the harmonic vibrations setup by the wind.

I read that the collapse of that bridge had more to do with the roadway supports acting like an airplane wing :?:

 

[Harvey44]

Well I'm not sure where to start. To start with, I am all for wind energy production. I worked in wind energy for 7 years and worked on all sorts of windimills from small 12 volt dc mills to 44 ft diameter, 60 kw commercial units.

First of all You need wind. 11-12 mph average just to break even. That doesn't sound like much but it is. Yes there is that kind of wind on mountain and ridge tops but once you drop off the ridge or mountain top you don't have enough. Ice skating rink in LP doesn't have enough, the ski jumps don't have enough.

Next you need good wind. This is wind that flows smoothly without turbulence caused by the ground or surounding features such as other ridges, trees. or even other windmills. That's why the windmills are on towers even though they are on high ground. If the wind is turbulant the mill spends it's time yawing back and forth in the wind.

Next you can't stick them on any old tower or building. For one thing they sometimes fail; Sometimes they fail catastrophically. I was once sent to Palm Springs a week after we had two windmills come down due to mounting bolt failures. You see these windmills in the beginning of the movie Rain Man when Tom Cruise get's the call his father has died. In that scene you can see how far from the highway those mills are. At least 100 yards. The blades from one of the failed mills landed in the road. A failure of even a small windmill on a lift tower? Forgetaboutit.

One of the design problems windmill manufacturers have to over come are tower dynamics, that is the relationship between the vibration that the windmill produces while operating and how the harmonics in the tower react to the to those vibrations. We've all probably seen the bridge in Tacoma, WA that went down because of the harmonic vibrations setup by the wind. That happens when windmills are put on things that aren't designed to hold them.

So While I would also like to see the developement of wind energy, it just ain't that easy.

I am fascinated by this. It's always more nuanced that it seems from the outside.

Keith -not trying to be political just trying to understand...is the Highwinds site a good spot for wind power from a technical perspective?

 

[Snowballs]

Adk keith..... what are you baseing your wind estimatements on?

the tacoma bridge failed due to cost reductions and poor design. there's now two bridges at the same location that work just fine.

i'll post more later on the windmills. now it's time to go rip on my Outlaw.

Adk keith, if this debate continues, please do not take it personally if i offer other info in the furtherance of this issue.

 

[Adk Keith]

The 11-12 mph figure is from my head, but is backed up by various references. 7 years in the industry traveling all over the US installing and fixing windmills will teach you allot, but I respect your interest in actual figures. Me too. Of course payback is also impacted by incentives and electricity prices. Here are some quickly Googled web pages.

http://www.alternative-heating-info.com/windpower_payback.html
http://www.ifnotwind.org/we101/wind-energy-basics.shtml

Correct, the tacoma bridge was due to cost reductions and poor design like putting a windmill on an unapproved structure. The wind created a standing wave that brought it down. I've seen these type of harmonic vibrations happen on windmill towers due to many factors, constant winds at a certain velocity, rythmic vibrations set up by tower shadow effect on the blades, etc. Regardless of the Tacoma bridge failure, windmill installations put on the incorrect supporting structures fail because the structure is too rigid or too flexible. Bad harmonics can also case undue noise in an installation as well.

I am more than happy to debate and I don't take it personally. Efficient, modern windmills are complex machines that are placed in the worst environments
on tall towers. As much as I love them they don't work everywhere and when installed incorrectly can be very dangerous and a waste of money.

Harv, I haven't seen the wind speed data from the Barton site. My guess is that its a fair site, especially those sited on the top of Pete Gay. The ones placed in the notch between Gore and Pete Gay I would expect would be less well suited, only reaping benefits from east and west winds since Gore and Pete Gay block the south and north winds respectively, plus theres the whole turbulence thing. . A 10% increase in average wind results in a 30% increase in output. Visually, I would rather see them in the notch than on top of the mountain however.

 

[Snowballs]

well said and informative. thanks Keith. i know we're not opponents. i just wanted to make sure no one's toes were hurt as this progresses.

it's very possible that various locations on Face, Gore and even ORDA HQ has sufficient wind to justify windmills. these are wind estimator links. left hand column has the results. all these locations are class 4/excellent. their respective addresses are just above " your site potential ". there's potential at these sites, esp. for smaller windmills. the APA is said to be more receptive to windmills now.

http://www.swiftwindturbine.com/wind_estimator_view.php?usession=49579 olympic center, ice rink and ORDA HQ (da bat cave)

http://www.swiftwindturbine.com/wind_estimator_view.php?usession=49594 ski jump area.

http://www.swiftwindturbine.com/wind_estimator_view.php?usession=49580 bobsled area

on the bottom half of those pages there's a "wind incentive" tab that indicates there's a 77% incentive in New York.

the design of the Swift Wind turbine with it's outriggers helps to negate yaw and i believe the effects of tower wind shadow as the blades tend to be into the wind more consistently. the circle on the blade's perimeter greatly reduces vibrations, harmonics and noise. it's whisper quiet - a good indication of significant vibration reduction. this coupled with their smaller size increases their location options greatly. many larger building roofs could have quite a few of these on them and be barely visible from the street.

http://www.swiftwindturbine.com/

there's also vertical axis, egg beaters, windmills that are also less prone to turbulence. they may be not as productive watt wise. not sure as there are many models.

if the windmills are paid for by Stimulus money, ORDA breaks even cost wise on day one ! the enviroment gains from day one. the positive PR is great. good Leadership - priceless.

IMO, the break even point is over rated for windmills and hybrid cars. it only figures in dollars while ignoring significant pollution reduction. we need to get past that as a society. we are putting way too much pollution in the enviroment. leadership is sorely needed. then the economics of numbers will drive down costs and increase efficiency. look down when you fly over a sunny state. you will see thousands and thousands of homes - potential solar panel installation sites. we need tax credits or such so that people will start to buy solar and before you know it we'll be picking them up at Lowe's for far less money. remember when a plain VCR was over $500? now you can by a much better one for less than $50 at Wally World.

the brown cloud, posted below, extends all the way for the middle east, across asia, india, china and into the pacific ocean.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/environment/brown_cloud.html

i saw another photo from China where the air pollutuion was so thick you could barely see the car in front of you let alone the buildings - they were totally obscured! this pollution was reported as being 1-2 miles high !!!

we need to do something about this ASAP. alot of the World has yet to join the modern consumer age. they very soon will.

there's another very huge and even more profound aspect to all this pollution that is overlooked and not even being discussed. i will post it soon.

 

[Snowballs]

Barton had elevated anemometers in that notch measuring wind flow over an extended period of time. if they still wanna proceed it must have sufficient wind.

Pratt told me once that Gore was think of buying some of this wind wattage off of Barton even though he said it would cost more. the lift ride ended before i could add that every watt Barton produces, the Grid is legally obligated to buy anyway.

 

[x10003q]

I: ) skiing said this about the Highline:
"This walkway (which was slated to be torn down) cost NY 150 Million dollars (that they are reporting) and will likely cost millions more in upkeep, increased security, vandalism etc. They had to sandblast 100% of it to get the lead off the metal. That contractor is likey is buying a new million dollar home at Gore. I particularly enjoyed reading the "this is prohibited" sign. I think the developers were very smart to take photos of the benches and areas before it opened to the public. Those benches look like skateboarder's dreams, note how they the ramp up/down."

I lived at 8th Ave and 15th St in the 1990s. One of the reasons presented to keep the Highline was that it might have cost more to take it down than to fix it. That area was a disaster and it was a dangerous place to walk through at night. One familiar sight were the tranny hookers. These sad souls usually had drug habits and were not above the occasional mugging. Making the Highline into a park was a way to do some creative urban renewal without taking private property. There are not enough parks in this area of NYC and this contributed to the turnaround of the neighborhood. In 10 years the area around the Highline has completely changed for the better (unless you are looking for tranny hookers). There are loads of new businesses and homes. The investment in the Highline has paid off and now we all can enjoy it.

 

[Adk Keith]

SB,

I would not disagree that there are locations on Gore and Whiteface with wind potential. I would be very careful in intepreting the info from that map for Lake Placid. Zooming out shows that it's zones are artificially set up, not based strictly on data. I suspect that that zone is getting it's data completely from the research station on WF. Downtown LP should not have the same wind potential as the top of WF.

I admit I am not familiar with the Swift. The website says its peak output is 1500 watts at begining at 24.6 miles an hour and up. So the most that one mill will power is a microwave or a blow drier. With a drop in output of 33% for every 10% drop in avg wind. it's not long before you're not making much juice. It seems they have tried to design it to take advantage of dirty wind so it probably has advantages in turbulent locations.

Vertical axis wind mills are great in theory, no need to follow the wind, no yaw losses, etc. Unfortunately from what I understand, they all have problems which differ with each of the designs. Big ones that sit on the gound have problems with differences in wind stresses top to bottom due to differing wind speeds for instance. You are correct that there aren't many. I guess because of their limited success. This is only from what I've read and from talking to others. I have been around them but have no personal experience with them.

My main point is that most people overestimate the wind potential and underestimate the complexity of a wind installation.

The rest of your post I would not dissagree with at all except to include most renewable energy systems with your break even statement. One of the problems with the "system" if you will, is the true costs are only acurately calculated on new technologys. The old technologys are subsidized and impacts are ingnored because it is status quo to the point where their true cost is lost or at least very difficult to figure. Then again, define cost.... :wink:

 

[I:)skiing]

x10003q..... I am glad things are taking off in that area. This is the point of the post to debate spending money on infrastructure that to some is a waste of money, or money ill spent, but to others who have dreams and insight....it can get paid back...hence the 6:1 ratio I mentioned.

I would guess or believe that this area is similar to many in Baltimore, Dc and Philly....many neighborhoods took off over the past 10 yrs as realestate inflation allowed folks the opportunity to build on equity of false equity. The Bay or Harbour was the focal point for Baltimore, I am sure the Highline is the focal point for this area. Time will tell in all of these neighborhoods. California is going bankrupt, Mass is not far behind. Baltimore now has the highest tax rates (both property and income) of surrounding areas and a declining property value is moving the young income earners (who drink at the bars with all their other money) out. A rehab town home bought for 40k, rehabed for 100k, was selling for 500k. Now it is on the market for 200k. Without taxes the streets don't get cleaned, the cops stop hanging out and the neighbood reverts.....property values decline more, more folks move out, tax base shrinks further. Back to square one.

Its a compex pie....with lots of slices and causes. Could the 150M have been better spent. We will never know for at least 40 yrs. This point was the debate and call to action to get some of that cash....to spur our (Gore/Northcreek) own area.


The ONLY reason it may have cost more than 150M to tear that down, would be becasue it was goverment who was putting out the bids and perhaps some "influence" who may have owned the companies who would tear it down.

I am all for parks, whereever they are. As noted I would love to take a walk on this one....assuming it says at nice as the photos show.

 

[I:)skiing]

Windmill debate---perhaps should start a new thread.


I wonder if the 9-10 windmills outside Sommerset Pa were ill placed. I have now been by this area 4 times in 2 years, at best one mill is spinning. Maybe too much wind and they have to shut them down, or not enough to get them spinning. Or maybe there was mfgr defect in that first group. On another web forum page others have also discussed how this pod of mills sits idle.


I have seen some tv video shows where they show windmills that have fallen. Not good. Initially I liked the idea of a windmill on a ski lift tower. However some really good points have been made.

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

windmills will NEVER happen in the park....at least, not in wilderness-designated areas.

 

[I:)skiing]

The Highline was just featured on the Discovery Channel's show...."Earth Without Man" A show that hypothesises what will happen to our infrastructure when/if man is removed. 1 day, 3 days, 1 week, 1 month, 1 yr, 5 yrs etc....pretty cool show if your into this. Guess the fact that nature took over after about 20 yrs on the Highline gave people insite to spend millions for man to recreate nature taking over.....but in a nicer, prettier way.