Frostillicus
New member
Yup. I always carry one.
Search and Rescue
- Thread starter adkskier
- Start date
Yup. I always carry one.
AdironRider
New member
Frostillicus said:
Completely legitimate question. A beacon, probe, and shovel are totally necessary in the backcountry, just as much so in the slackcountry as well. Sure the survival stuff will help when the shit hits the fan, but my point is that if these guys had the proper awareness and the right backcountry equipment in the first place, they could have lapped the Gore slackcountry all day and this never would have happened. Taking some other posters advice is like driving around everywhere with a towtruck following you waiting for the worst, as opposed to just fixing your car.
I will admit, primarily due to an overall lack of annual snowfall, the problem is nowhere near as frequent back East than it is here out West; however, 50 inches of heavy wet snow on weak faceted layers of rain crust, ice, and all the wonderful Eastern conditions you can find in a low snow year and you're going to have avalanches anywhere. Look at the guys up in the high peaks. It doesnt take much, and Gore slackcountry has plenty of terrain traps, trees, etc that will really mess you up if the slope rips out, and yes, glades will slide as well. Its not just wide open western bowls that provide those planet earth type avis that you need to be aware of. People have gotten completely buried here in Jackson when a 20 foot uphill slope of a ditch slid out. That ski patroller died, from avalanche that slid 20 feet down to a ditch. The right terrain can make little slides a big deal.
Ill see if I can find the TR from over on TGR earlier this season that can show just what can happen. Couple dudes were skiing thick, relatively low angle glades back east with only 10" fresh snow and caused avalanches. It does not take wide open spaces and 500+ inches a year to have to worry about avalanches, a strong wind can load the right aspect 3+ feet deep in a matter of hours.
Ill admit, I myself was naive to the seriousness of avalanche activity and the consequences of playing in the snow everyday. I highly encourage people to go out and learn about backcountry safety, the amount of information and knowledge you will obtain will make you a much better outdoorsman, and give you the skills needed to go out and explore with confidence.
Or you can continue to think you need a full overnight survival pack to even look at the slackcountry like others suggest, but in reality it takes just a little awareness, personal responsibility, and the proper avalanche equipment to have a wonderful full day OB.
Edit to answer technical questions: A beacon sends out radio signals in an eliptical curve outward from the beacon, think radio waves that are shaped like half ovals emitting out in all directions. When you switch the beacon to recieve it will recognize these radio signals in distances of meters, but the key element is that it measures the distance the actual radio wave has traveled. It is tough to grasp at first when your beacon says the one your looking for is 50 meters away when in reality it might only be 20 feet to your right, but the radio waves have traveled 50 meters to get to you. ( This is a concept that is tough to describe, but really easy to see with a picture, so Ill see if I can find one later tonight when Im not at work, but I hope that makes sense. ) That being said, a beacon will start to pick up signals from about 40-50 meters away give or take.
To clarify, Im not saying a whistle wouldnt have helped in this situation, but if they had the proper backcountry gear and awareness in the first place, they could have been OB all day and had a wonderful time.
fujative.
New member
AdironRider said:
...40m to 50m away the search and rescue team could be having a conversation with the lost party, without yelling. Beacon's are if the person is buried under snow caused from an avalanche, not for cheating in hide and go seek. There was no need for a beacon nor a probe in the recovery process (not saying that it isn't smart to have them). There was no avalanche. Maybe a shovel would have been useful. The best backcountry gear they could have had was a compass, some knowledge of the land, and skins.
I don't think that having a probe and beacon would have made hiking out of there any more or less desirable.
fujative. said:
Does the local SAR even use beacons in Gore mtn area recovery operations? Just curious...I cant imagine there's any more than an infintesimal amount of slackcountry skiers, day hikers, snowshoers, etc that use one, so I'm wondering if the SAR even uses or trains on recovery using one.
Harvey44
New member
I asked one of the rescuers about the whistle. He felt that it would have helped a little, but not as much as you might think. It was his feeling that with the trees so thick and plastered in snow, sound was not traveling.
This is speculation on my part but ... at that elevation it's quite possible the cover was primarily balsam/everygreen. Farther down on the lower parts of the ridge (Tannery) we know it's mostly hardwood.
I got a few words out of Mike last night. Thought you might be interested:
http://harvey44.blogspot.com/1970/03/mike-pratt-comments-on-sundays-search.html
This is speculation on my part but ... at that elevation it's quite possible the cover was primarily balsam/everygreen. Farther down on the lower parts of the ridge (Tannery) we know it's mostly hardwood.
I got a few words out of Mike last night. Thought you might be interested:
http://harvey44.blogspot.com/1970/03/mike-pratt-comments-on-sundays-search.html
AdironRider said:
I think you are putting too much emphasis on beacon, shovel and probe. Not sure how these items would have helped them lapped the Gore slackcountry much. You are leaving out the most important pieces of equipment that should be had first. Tele/AT skis, skins and a compass or GPS. Having a set of skis and skins and a compass would have let them skin back up.
The real issue is the proper awareness and common sense.
Harvey44 said:
Is that right? In the book " Exploring the 46 Adk High Peaks " the author tells of a x-country skier on the summit of some Adk peak. He was off the main trail when the snow beneath him collapsed/sunk and he fell into a 12-15 foot deep snowhole of less dense snow than he had been on. He was unable to climb out. There were only those very short, knee high trees at this elevation....nothing to climb up and out on. He was trapped and would have been screwed.
You cannot yell to summon help or alert others for very long at all. Very, very quickly your voice's volume will disappear and very quickly you lose your voice completely.... then you are unable to summon help from people who may be in your vicinity!
Yelling also rapidly dehydrates and completely exhausts you. Do you know why that's a very bad thing in this situation?
You can " call for help " for hours and hours - Days - with whistles without losing your voice, getting dehydrated and exhausted.
It was a good thing this X-country skier didn't share your opinion of whistles. He kept blowing on his whistle and eventually a group of skiers in proximity heard it, went looking for him and saved him. If he didn't have his whistle, he likely would have been hoarse when the skiers finally passed by and he'ld still be out there.
In the Gore incident, a whistle helps an active search party find you, get a fix on you, so they don't pass right by you in the darkness, snow cover pines, etc (That Happens!) .... so they spend less time stumbling around in the inky darkness, etc. These particular Gore skiers may have already spent much of their dwindling energy and hydration yelling for help - energy/hydration that would have been very useful hiking out or fighting off hypothermia.
A Whistle's sound carries better than voices - they are considerably louder. They WILL REACH FARTHER AND LAST LONGER than you voice. If conditions are poor for hearing then they're even worse for visiblity, esp at night. You have a much better chance of alerting people in your area if you have a whistle.
Whistles good! I always have my Wolf whistle handy......... in case of Hotties.
Spongeworthy
New member
There's only one way to settle this . . . MORE COWBELL!
Spongeworthy said:
Good example! Those are used to alert Heidi and Co as to the wayward cow's position. Sound is a main method to summoning help, alerting others to your location and telling people you need help.
How many hundreds of sports games have we all watched where the Official's Whistle is clearly audible amidst all the crowd noise, players colliding, on and on. The Whistle's sound reaches out and we all hear it ! All the way from your couch! :wink:
Who hasn't been to sporting events live and heard a whistle above all the crowd noise, through all the hoopla?
Or the Police Officer directing traffic at a busy intersection full of loud vehiles, driver's listening to music, windows rolled up, etc. He uses his Whistle and the drivers hear it above the din.
Even if conditions lower the range of sound, a Whistle will substantailly extend that range and preserve one's ablity to audibily alert others - there may not be an active search party and victims may have to rely on people who happen to be in the area. Whistles save energy and body hydration. Those are all very important things that the simple act of carrying a whistle can help.
The x-country skier mentioned above would not need any convincing about the value of whistles. There would be nothing " to settle " in his mind on this issue.
If that don't speak volumes to people.........
I was one of the skiers that was lost out there that evening. We entered off of the top of what I now know is Chatemac. We initially went into the woods at the very top of the run and saw a sign that said "Ski area boundary" so we turned back onto the main run and skied down a couple hundred yards until we saw a well warn trail heading into the woods. We followed that trail in and made a couple of turns and dropped a couple of small cliffs and found ourselves in a drainage where there were a couple of tracks. At no point did we see any tree line or signs marking a ski area boundary. There were some tracks that continued down the drainage and we started to follow them but really didn't feel like we were heading in the right direction, so we attempted to climb back up the side of the drainage. The snow was deep to the point that it was impossible to move if you were not in your skis, but the brush was so think and the drainage so steep that it was almost impossible to side step up the ridge. At this point we decided that we would follow the drainage down because there were already some tracks continuing down the drainage so we assumed that someone else had been down through there and we just might have a long walk to get out. We had no idea that we were in a second drainage that was running directly away from the mountain and heading into the heart of the woods. We continued to follow the tracks that were already laid in the drainage and eventually came upon another lost skier who had telephoned his father and ski patrol and told them that he was lost. At this point we decided to make a fire and just stay where we were as the sun was beginning to set and we had no idea if we would be found that night.
I can again say with 100% honesty that there was never any intention on our part to leave the ski area, and I am completely and utterly grateful for the efforts of the New York State Forrest Rangers in finding us that evening.
I understand that to the majority of the people that are going to read about this we are just some idiots who put themselves in harms way, but I can honestly say that I have spent a lot of time in the woods and a lot of time backcountry skiing. I fully appreciate the dangers that exist when I put myself into those situations, but on Sunday we thought we were skiing an in bounds gladed area, and by the time we realized we weren't we couldn't get back.
I can again say with 100% honesty that there was never any intention on our part to leave the ski area, and I am completely and utterly grateful for the efforts of the New York State Forrest Rangers in finding us that evening.
I understand that to the majority of the people that are going to read about this we are just some idiots who put themselves in harms way, but I can honestly say that I have spent a lot of time in the woods and a lot of time backcountry skiing. I fully appreciate the dangers that exist when I put myself into those situations, but on Sunday we thought we were skiing an in bounds gladed area, and by the time we realized we weren't we couldn't get back.
Spongeworthy
New member
WTF? Are you kidding? :shock:St. Jerry said:
If there's a lawsuit, I wanna be in that courtroom to see Gore's lawyers rip them a new a-hole.
Spongeworthy
New member
I heard that the Jeff who did the rescue of the two kids with Tara was Jeff Palka who owns The Source.
Stop by his store and show some appreciation.
Stop by his store and show some appreciation.
Harvey44
New member
Jeff Palka and Tara were involved in the second half of the rescue - the part that took half the night.
It sounds from the description above. CRDalmata was in the first group, who were out of the woods much earlier.
Still ... it's always good to show the love especially at the Gear Source. We need a store like that in town.
And as Sponge said, ANYONE who was involved should, IMO. make an effort to follow up with Patrol and Steve Ovitt and the rangers. I KNOW they'd appreciate it.
FYO on Saturday I ran into a group of Patrol, meeting at the edge of Chatiemac. They told me that this was the point at which one of the groups exited the trail. Most of us probably know the spot a few yards above highline. For me, it's hard to imagine dropping in there.
It sounds from the description above. CRDalmata was in the first group, who were out of the woods much earlier.
Still ... it's always good to show the love especially at the Gear Source. We need a store like that in town.
And as Sponge said, ANYONE who was involved should, IMO. make an effort to follow up with Patrol and Steve Ovitt and the rangers. I KNOW they'd appreciate it.
FYO on Saturday I ran into a group of Patrol, meeting at the edge of Chatiemac. They told me that this was the point at which one of the groups exited the trail. Most of us probably know the spot a few yards above highline. For me, it's hard to imagine dropping in there.
Appreciation
Now that one of those rescued has shown up in this discussion...all of those rescued should get together and contribute to throw a very generous appreciation party for the patrol and rangers. If this had occurred on US Forest land (as at western ski resorts), those rescued would have been ticketed and billed for the rescue. In NYS, they get away cheap and prosecution is uncommon.
Now that one of those rescued has shown up in this discussion...all of those rescued should get together and contribute to throw a very generous appreciation party for the patrol and rangers. If this had occurred on US Forest land (as at western ski resorts), those rescued would have been ticketed and billed for the rescue. In NYS, they get away cheap and prosecution is uncommon.
